Lolita IS Dying, let's talk about it.
Russ Rector
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The Rectory
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| Viewing Page 1 of 1 (Total Posts: 30) |
| Author | Comment |
Kathy Woods
Aug 15, 08 - 8:57 AM |
Lolita
I was watching the video on Christian the Lion and noticed in the notes about Lolita and went to those videos to watch. Unfortunately, as I watched her story, with tears running down my face, I realized there wasn't a good ending. My heart breaks for her - is there any progress at all regarding reuniting her with her family? Maybe a million dollars isn't enough but he must have a price - people like that ALWAYS have a price. |
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Corkylover
Aug 15th, 2008 - 11:56 AM |
Re: Lolita
she's more than likely not going anywhere. Hertz won't give up and that's that. It's better for her to stay put. The stress of all that could kill her. She's old...it's sad to say that she won't be moving anywhere. |
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Kathy
Aug 15th, 2008 - 11:58 AM |
Re: Lolita
Well, I certainly disagree with you...I would rather see her die in the attempt for freedom and happiness than to see her being exploited and unable to be the marvelous creature that she is. |
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Russ Rector
Aug 15th, 2008 - 12:39 PM |
Re: Lolita
KATHY UNFOUTUNALLY THAT WINDOW HAS CLOSED AND ALL THE PAST MISTAKES MADE BY THE FREE LOLITA MOVEMENT ARE COMING HOME TO ROOST; SO TO SPEAK! |
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Kathy
Aug 15th, 2008 - 12:41 PM |
Re: Lolita
What do you mean by that, Russ? |
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Russ Rector
Aug 15th, 2008 - 12:43 PM |
Re: Lolita
HERTZ IS SO MAD AND TICKED OFF AT THEM HE WILL NEVER, EVER DEAL WITH THEM. |
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Kathy
Aug 15th, 2008 - 12:44 PM |
Re: Lolita
Them?? |
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Russ Rector
Aug 15th, 2008 - 12:54 PM |
Re: Lolita
ANY ONE WHO SUPPORTS FREEING LOLITA! HE WILL NOT EVEN TALK. |
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Kathy
Aug 15th, 2008 - 1:08 PM |
Re: Lolita
So everything I watched in those videos is outdated and you are saying it's a lost cause? |
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Russ Rector
Aug 15th, 2008 - 2:10 PM |
Re: Lolita
times and situations change...nothing stays the same. |
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Manon
Aug 16th, 2008 - 5:13 AM |
Re: Lolita
HM LOLITA HAS QUITE A FEW YEARS TO GO, THE ARGUMENT THAT SHE IS TOO OLD AND JUST SHOULD STAY THERE IS NONSENSE. SEA WORLD MOVES ORCA'S ALL THE TIME, AND THEY DON'T DIE AROUND THE TIME OF THE MOVEMENT AT ALL. IF IT WAS TRUE THAT THE STRESS WOULD KILL HER, THEN SHE WOULD HAVE DIED WHEN SHE WAS CAPTURED AND MOVED TO SEAPRISON. THAT WAS LIKELY A LOT MORE STRESS AND PAIN FOR HER THAN HER MOVEMENT BACK TO HER NATIVES. |
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Neveah
Aug 16th, 2008 - 11:11 AM |
Re: Lolita
"SEA WORLD MOVES ORCA'S ALL THE TIME, AND THEY DON'T DIE AROUND THE TIME OF THE MOVEMENT AT ALL." They are all much, much younger when they get moved and all of them have been trained for it, something Lolita has never had. "IF IT WAS TRUE THAT THE STRESS WOULD KILL HER, THEN SHE WOULD HAVE DIED WHEN SHE WAS CAPTURED AND MOVED TO SEAPRISON." She was younger then, her immune system could handle the stress better then she could now. THAT WAS LIKELY A LOT MORE STRESS AND PAIN FOR HER THAN HER MOVEMENT BACK TO HER NATIVES. Except that she wouldn't understand that she was going back to Puget. It would be more like, "HOLY CRAP THEY ARE TAKING ME AWAY?!?!?! WTH!" The last time she was in a sling, she was being taken from her home in Puget. MSQ, no matter how small that pool is, has been her home for over forty years. Why take that away from her? |
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Manon
Aug 16th, 2008 - 11:22 AM |
Re: Lolita
SHE CAN BE TRAINED FOR IT. AND DOES AGE REALLY MATTER THAT MUCH? (IT'S A SERIOUS QUESTION) DOES IT REALLY MATTER IF YOU MOVE A TEENAGER OR AN ADULT? KEIKO MANAGED FINE TOO. SHE DIDN'T KNOW WHERE SHE WAS GOING BACK THEN EITHER. SHE EVEN SAW FAMILY MEMBERS DYING, DO YOU THINK THAT WAS JUST AN AVERAGE THING? SHE WAS SO YOUNG, I DON'T THINK IT'S LESS BAD, AND THIS TIME SHE WON'T BE PUT IN SOME WEIRD PLACE SHE HADN'T BEEN BEFORE. SHE CAN REMEMBER, SHE REMEMBERS HER FAMILY CALLS, WHY WOULDN'T SHE REMEMBER THE WATER SHE HAD ROAMED IN FOR 6 YEARS? IF YOU WOULD BE IN A CELL FOR 40 YEARS, WOULD YOU THINK "WHY TAKE ME AWAY FROM THE PLACE I'VE BEEN FOR 40 YEARS"? SHE'S THE SAME AS KEIKO, SHE'S JUST FLOATING IN HER BATHTUB, WAITING FOR ANOTHER SHOW TO BEGIN. |
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Anon
Aug 16th, 2008 - 3:36 PM |
Re: Lolita
Manon, simply saying "she can be trained for it" doesn't cut it. It takes many many hours to train a cetacean to do something like that. It would put huge amounts of stress on her, and older animals don't respond to stress the way younger ones do. You're also overlooking the fact that the ocean water is so polluted her immune system would most likely fail fighting the infections and she would die. Her tank is small yes. But she knows it well. It is her home, and she doesn't look at it the same way you do. Anything outside it is scary and unknown to her. She is comfortable in the home shes known for almost 40 years and her trainers are her family now. Moving her, "freeing" her, would end up costing huge amounts of money, and you would most likely end up with a dead orca. As much as I'd love to see her (or any animal) free again, I'm not willing to gamble her life. |
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Manon
Aug 17th, 2008 - 7:30 AM |
Re: Lolita
SHE'S GOING TO DIE ANYWAY, IF WE LEAVE HER THERE OR NOT. IT'S NOT AS IF IT WAS OUR FAULT THAT KEIKO DIED. IT WAS A COMMON ILLNES THAT KILLED KEIKO. |
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Russ Rector
Aug 17th, 2008 - 10:46 AM |
Re: Lolita
HUMAN STUPIDITY KILLED KEIKO! |
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Russ Rector
Aug 17th, 2008 - 11:16 AM |
Re: Lolita
AND GREED AND EGO!!!!!!!!!! |
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Anon
Aug 17th, 2008 - 4:53 PM |
Re: Lolita
Yes shes going to die. All creatures die. But are you saying that since "she's going to die anyway" that we should move her and if she dies, oops oh well? That is ridiculous. Shes doing fine where she is. And I wouldn't be surprised if she has many years ahead of her. But I can imagine, even if she reaches the ripe old age of 70, you will still say captivity killed her. |
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Kathy
Aug 17th, 2008 - 8:58 PM |
Re: Lolita
Well, I am personally of the belief that there are things much worse than the chance of dying...captivity and not being able to be free is much worse than death - especially in a tank that is ridiculously small and in terrible condition. I would prefer to see her live a shorter life swimming in the ocean - where she belongs - than many more years where she is. I also believe that animals are very intuitive and she would know that the individuals relocating her were helping her. Most of us are certainly not orca experts; however, I believe most of us know in our hearts that the way she is living is just wrong and immoral. |
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paula
Aug 18th, 2008 - 6:45 PM |
Re: Lolita
i dont understand why people always say the stress of moving would kill her when the stress of captivity hasnt already. it doesnt make sense. she will most likely survive transport, if shes survived substandard living conditions for this long. i mean come on. |
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Anon
Aug 19th, 2008 - 4:40 PM |
Re: Lolita
She isn't stressed in her captive environment. Its her home and she is comfortable in it. I know some of you will say "no she isn't." But the facts are that if she were continually stressed and depressed in the home she is in, she would have died years ago. Moving her would be stressful because of her age and also the fact that she hasn't been moved since she was very young. She isn't trained for it. You guys can't seem to understand this. It isn't a matter of simply putting her into a sling and plopping her into another tank. Moves are stressful enough as it is for just us trainers. Imagine how it is for the animal. |
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Kathy
Aug 20th, 2008 - 6:09 AM |
Re: Lolita
So you are a trainer Anon?? |
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paula
Aug 20th, 2008 - 11:36 AM |
Re: Lolita
Thats exactly what I said Anon. she ISN'T STRESSED. Did you read my post? I said obviously, if her captivity hasn't stressed her, a move wouldn't do much harm. YES even in the best conditions captivity is stressful. It's been proven. Lolita has far from he best conditions. she is strong. I believe that she could withstand a move, however, that is an educated guess. i don't know for sure. |
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paula
Aug 20th, 2008 - 11:40 AM |
Re: Lolita
i meant to say the stress of it in the begining, when she was first captured. sorry Anon if i sounded...rude..:P |
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Anon
Aug 20th, 2008 - 1:25 PM |
Re: Lolita
I am not one of Tokis trainers, nor do I work at MSQ Kathy. Though I have spent time there with and around her. Where I currently work is not the issue ;) |
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Russ Rector
Aug 20th, 2008 - 1:26 PM |
Re: Lolita
SW PAULA SW |
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Olivia
Aug 30th, 2008 - 2:31 AM |
Re: Lolita
ofc she would survive a move. Its more likly thats she will die in that fishbowl. (Oh ye thats what she will do, if we dont do anything about it) It would have been more stressfull for her to be taken from the wild, the stress and panic, then it will be for her to move now to a bigger tank.If she didnt died when being captured she wont die now. Dont belive everything MSQ says, just to have the right to still have her! |
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Anon
Aug 30th, 2008 - 6:07 AM |
Re: Lolita
Take into consideration her age. She was much much younger when she was moved to MSQ. Younger animals are more resilient to moves than older ones. |
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Ladybug
Aug 30th, 2008 - 9:28 AM |
Re: Lolita
Anon said >> It is her home, and she doesn't look at it the same way you do. Anything outside it is scary and unknown to her. She is comfortable in the home shes known for almost 40 years and her trainers are her family now. I say >> How do YOU know how she looks at it? You are so full of hot air even tho you try to sound like you know what Lolita thinks and feels. HA! And to say, "Anything outside it is scary and unknown to her" is laughable. How could you possibly know what is scary to her? The answer is, you can't. You've said a million times that she's "comfortable" in her tank. Comfortable? Oh really? She 'endures' her small, cramped tank but that doesn't make her comfortable. How about I lock you up in a phone booth for the rest of your life, away from everyone and everything you love, would that make you comfortable? Sure, you would endure it for years on end, but would you be comfortable? I don't think so. |
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Anon
Aug 30th, 2008 - 2:13 PM |
Re: Lolita
Its true, I cannot tell you what she feels, or how any animal feels for that matter. However, take an animal out of what its known for years, and obviously, its going to be uncomfortable. Having worked with animals for years, its obvious when an animal becomes agitated and uncomfortable in a new environment. It takes a while for them to adjust. Anyone with a dog can understand that. I don't think Toki sees herself as "enduring" her current tank. Its her HOME. Its what she knows and has known for years. Unlike you, I have spent a lot of time with her and its obvious in the way she acts how comfortable she is. You don't see her interacting with trainers during her sessions, or the times she fast swims and breaches around her tank during the day, playing with the lags. Playing with toys, messing with her trainers, eating well, interacting. These are NOT the signs of a depressed animal. You think because I have experience I'm full of "hot air." Call it whatever you like. I'm just as normal as the next person and I don't presume to know everything. However I do know a bit more about what I am talking about when it comes to cetaceans. I have been around the block a few times and I do know a thing or to about their health, training and care. And once again. I NEVER said I'm glad she is in a small space. I've said NUMEROUS times that I would be thrilled to see her get a bigger place to call home. Though unlike you and a lot of others on this forum, I tend to look at the facts and take into consideration the characteristics of Toki and what something like that would entail. I also know, like Russ, that her moving/being freed will never happen. You cannot blame me for that. I have no say in what happens to her as she is owned by the MSQ and Hertz has already established that she isn't going anywhere. Don't shoot the messenger ;) |
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