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Lolita IS Dying, let's talk about it. 

Russ Rector
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ProudOrcaWarrior

deleted deleted


Aug 10, 08 - 4:41 PM 		Keiko

If anyone has anything to say about Keiko, post it here.
Dat one Chica



Aug 10th, 2008 - 11:28 PM 		Re: Keiko

Im pro captivity, and honestly think he was fine in oregon, people have a suckish habbit of cramming their opinions down the throats of animals, when in reality, there is NO way whatsoever to tell what an animal is thinking, you can make educated gueses based upon behavior, such as when a dog wags its tail its happy, when a cat hisses its warning you, but thoughts as complex as "I hate life in captivity, i wish i was free", there are no ways to tell this.

he may have been physically free, but mentally bound to his trainers. He may have had the choice to be independant and wild, but it seemed as though his trainers for the most part came first. He loved the attention from his trainers, and would come back to them for attention, but they tried to prohibit this in an effort to make him "wild again". Thus releasing a captive animal, and forcing it to avoid the human contact its grown to know and love i believe is cruel. I believe if he was left in Oregon, he would have been fine, and probably still alive.
ProudOrcaWarrior

deleted


Aug 11th, 2008 - 6:07 AM 		Re: Keiko

Well, he was much happier in Oregon than in Mexico. As for telling if an animals happy, there are body signs we look for. Maybe he was happy in the wild. The one thing that we know for sure is that he got along much better with people.
See this is why people shouldn't capture orcas in the first place.
ProudOrcaWarrior

deleted


Aug 11th, 2008 - 9:42 AM 		Re: Keiko

By procaptivity, you don't mean that you want EVERY animal to be put on display, do you?
Russ Rector



Aug 11th, 2008 - 9:57 AM 		Re: Keiko

DID OF ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY SEE KEIKO AT ALL?
Another Random Person XD



Aug 11th, 2008 - 12:59 PM 		Re: Keiko

when i say pro captivity, i mean the animals current in captivity should stay there, but i oppose future captures.

and no i dont mean every animal should be put on display


blue whale? no
Anon



Aug 11th, 2008 - 4:25 PM 		Re: Keiko

I was able to see Keiko while he was in Oregon.

I was very happy to see him moved from his previous home into a larger environment but I don't think it was a good idea to "free" him.

People watch the "Free willy" movies and think its simply that easy to put them back in the water and they will instantly remember everything when it comes to surviving.

I wish he could have survived, but I really wish he hadn't been moved, and I sincerely think he'd be alive today if none of this had taken place.
Another Random Person XD



Aug 11th, 2008 - 4:40 PM 		Re: Keiko

I totally agree with Anon
Russ Rector



Aug 11th, 2008 - 4:50 PM 		Re: Keiko

I SAW HIM IN MEXICO CITY AND HE WAS ANYTHING BUT HAPPY!!!!!!!!!!!!
Another Random Person XD



Aug 11th, 2008 - 4:54 PM 		Re: Keiko

OMG wHEneVer You SEe ANy CAPTive ANimal THeir NOTHEING but HappY RUSs!!

EverYOne is AlwAYs DeprEssED in YOUr EYES!!



Yes keiko gradually became unhealthy during his later years in Mexico, i highly doubt he hated every waking moment of it. For god sakes do you know all the attention he got down there?
original random person



Aug 11th, 2008 - 5:03 PM 		Re: Keiko

Keiko probably didnt like his pool over there in mexico,but im sure he enjoyed the attention,any social animal would.
Russ Rector



Aug 11th, 2008 - 5:14 PM 		Re: Keiko

YOU CONFUSE HAPPINESS WITH ATTENTION. YOU REALLY HAVE EXPERIENCE TO BACK THAT UP...DO YOU?
Another Random Person XD



Aug 11th, 2008 - 5:16 PM 		Re: Keiko

lmao i die out laughing everytime i read your posts.

Russ you seriously need to get a life, take up a hobby like gardening or something, instead of filling up peoples minds with this treehugging bull**** that you have the tendancy to do.
teh talkin taco



Aug 11th, 2008 - 5:19 PM 		Re: Keiko

LMFAO!!
XDDDDDDDDD

soo true
Russ Rector



Aug 11th, 2008 - 5:23 PM 		Re: Keiko

AS ALWAYS YOU HIDERS NEVER ANSWER A DIRECT QUESTION. WHEN I ASK A QUESTION I SUGGEST YOU ANSWER. IF YOU WANT TO KEEP POSTING!
Another Random Person XD



Aug 11th, 2008 - 5:24 PM 		Re: Keiko

wth? i look at alot of your posts and you never answer questions either

you just ask the people who asked YOU the question, if they know what their talking about or if they have experience to back it up.
Russ Rector



Aug 11th, 2008 - 5:25 PM 		Re: Keiko

MY BOARD
Another Random Person XD



Aug 11th, 2008 - 5:26 PM 		Re: Keiko

ok then..how do we know your not confusing attention for happiness?
Russ Rector



Aug 11th, 2008 - 5:27 PM 		Re: Keiko

BECAUSE I KNOW BETTER AND I AM A LOT OLDER AND WISER THAN YOU!
Another Random Person XD



Aug 11th, 2008 - 5:30 PM 		Re: Keiko

psssh ok then XD




I think the only thing you can contribute to your age are a few less brain cells.
original random person



Aug 11th, 2008 - 6:05 PM 		Re: Keiko

hey russ,guess what.
both animals and people are happy when they get attention,by the way i dont hide.
my name is Andre Lelouche and i live in Montreal,Quebec
im 28 years old
Olivia



Aug 12th, 2008 - 3:04 AM 		Re: Keiko

When kaiko moved to iceland, his health become stronger. SO He lived happy in the wild aswell. I prefer 3 years of happines and then die by nature, then living whole life in captivity!
Samantha



Aug 12th, 2008 - 8:44 AM 		Re: Keiko

Oliva Couldnt Explain it Better. lol But she spelt Keiko Wrong.
Iam Sure Keiko ( Like any Other Orca in Captivity )Enjoyed the attention of his trainers, but would have ( and did) enjoyed the companionship of other orcas better.
Anon



Aug 12th, 2008 - 11:38 AM 		Re: Keiko

You guys are still missing the point.

Keiko was never completely "free."

He still relied on humans even when he did "live" in the wild.
Russ Rector



Aug 12th, 2008 - 12:07 PM 		Re: Keiko

THE KEIKO PROJECT WAS A DISMAL FAILURE THAT COST $60,000,000.OO..WASTED 60 MILL!!$$$$!!!$$$
original random person



Aug 12th, 2008 - 4:23 PM 		Re: Keiko

Not a total waste.Keiko was moved to oregon,into a decent sized pool for just one orca,mind you he should have just stayed in oregon.permanently or atleast until we know more about his family.
Russ Rector



Aug 12th, 2008 - 4:27 PM 		Re: Keiko

BUT HE DIDN'T DID HE? AND HE IS DEAD..HE DIED A CAPTIVE IN THAT FIORD...AND $60,000,000.00 IS GONE! THAT'S A FAILURE PURE AND SIMPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Corkylover



Aug 12th, 2008 - 5:26 PM 		Re: Keiko

Umm...nice spelling.

Anyway. He chose to stay there in that bay that he died at. He traveled MILES interacted with wild whales, and fended for himself. Yeah that is a total waste. It was short, yes but I think he wouldn't have lived much longer anyway. He should have stayed captive, but he proved that whales could be wild again, living for themselves out in the wild. So he interacted with humans alot as well, that was his choice, he enjoyed that clearly. Don't tell me that is all he knew because he hunted with a pod and caught his own fish.
Russ Rector



Aug 12th, 2008 - 5:32 PM 		Re: Keiko

NO HE DIDNT HUNT HE LOST A LOT OF WEIGHT ON HIS WAY TO NORWAY AND STARTED BEGGING FOR FISH AT BOAT RAMPS AND DOCKS! HE DIED ALONE IN NORWAY AND IS STILL FROZEN THERE!
original random person



Aug 12th, 2008 - 6:06 PM 		Re: Keiko

Russ,they burried him.he is not frozen in a block of ice or anything like that. He didnt beg,he wanted human attention,it was his own choice.

Its spelt fjord by the way
Russ Rector



Aug 12th, 2008 - 6:37 PM 		Re: Keiko

MY ASS HE IS FROZEN IN PERMA FROST AND THEY DIDNT EVEN DO A NECROPSY ON HIM...YOU KNOW NOTHING!
Neveah



Aug 12th, 2008 - 7:03 PM 		Re: Keiko

They didn't do a necropsy because they didn't want to attract publicity or too have leaked pictures of dead Keiko.
They knew what he had, but by the time he started showing symptoms and the time it would have took for the vet to arrive, either he was going to pull through or he wasn't... it's obvious what happened.

And no, I never saw Keiko but I've walked through his tank :)
original random person



Aug 12th, 2008 - 7:40 PM 		Re: Keiko

Russ,theres no permafrost in the part or Norway keiko was in,the occasional iceburg maybe.
perma frost never melts,no cetacean ever goes in permafrost because everything there is frozen solid,no breathing holes.

Russ is an exelent example of why learning geography is important.
Russ Rector



Aug 12th, 2008 - 7:58 PM 		Re: Keiko

BULL CRAP THEY DUG A HOLE AND BURIED HIM AND YES IT IS PERMA FROST YOU KNOW NOTHING!!!!!
Neveah



Aug 12th, 2008 - 9:53 PM 		Re: Keiko

What would you have rather done with him?

Cremation? To do so, he would have had to been chopped up be able to fit. Unless you know a furnace that could accommodate a twenty foot, several ton killer whale?

Buried at sea? We've all seen how well that works with Hyak and the Penn cove captures. Too much risk of Keiko washing up and pictures turning up online.


Publicity is a big part, Keiko was an inspiration and hero to millions of kids worldwide. It was tragic enough that he died, but for his fans... do they really want the mental image of Keiko chopped up and cremated? Or his carcass (possibly) washing ashore?

And yes I know that the sea world orcas are dissected and sent off to various universities blahblahblah... but in general the Sea world orcas are all shamu to the public eye. The majority of park goers don't go into the park knowing that Shamu is Ulises, Baby shamu is Kalia, and Namu is Corky. All the names are interchangeable. So when they die and are shipped off, most people don't know that they've died, so there for they don't run the publicity risk as Keiko did. Although that is changing... Taku's, Halyn's, and Noni's death were all announced, but I can't remember if Splash's was or not...

And I apologize for the slight ramblingness of that... :) I've been up since four and so far I am running on a mixture of chocolate, soda and gum.
original random person



Aug 12th, 2008 - 10:05 PM 		Re: Keiko

whatever you wanna beleive crazy old man
Russ Rector



Aug 13th, 2008 - 7:32 AM 		Re: Keiko

NEV DID YOU EVER SEE KEIKO...AND WHAT PREY TELL KILLED HIM????? DO YOU KNOW????????
ProudOrcaWarrior



Aug 13th, 2008 - 9:58 AM 		Re: Keiko

Pnuemonia killed him. Its a disease that orcas get from being in captivity, not in the wild. So, he would've died any way. We all die someday. What you must ask yourself is, what is the best way to go? Roaming the vast ocean, or rotting away in a tiny tank, being forced to perform until you died?
Corkylover



Aug 13th, 2008 - 11:58 AM 		Re: Keiko

Technically Keiko would have stayed in oregon in my opinion. He would have a nice retirement. And show me proof he lost weight Russ. And wow....Norway doesn't have permafrost where he was at. TRUST ME. I have a friend there and she said NO. Sorry, she won't come on here, she has on interest for orcas.

You are being really immature about this I hope you know that Russ. Plain and simple, Keiko lived, he hunted, he interacted with humans then he died. He swam miles, and from pictures I didn't see him loose weight. If that happened, then people would have taken him back to the sea pen. And if so, EVERY ORCA would loose weight from shortage of fish and the traveling. DUH.
Russ Rector



Aug 13th, 2008 - 12:14 PM 		Re: Keiko

HE IS BURIED 10 FEET DOWN IN GROUND WHICH IS FROZEN MOST OF THE YEAR THEN.
Neveah



Aug 13th, 2008 - 12:29 PM 		Re: Keiko

"NEV DID YOU EVER SEE KEIKO"
I already said I never saw him personally, I moved up here about two years after he moved.

And as other people have said, it was pneumonia that killed him. He was showing signs of it before he died.

"Its a disease that orcas get from being in captivity, not in the wild."
Since Keiko was in the wild and not a tank, I think you kind of disproved yourself. And how can you know that they get it just from captivity? Its just as reasonable that they get it in the wild too, we just can't know because they aren't under observation and if they die from it, they sink to the bottom of the ocean.

"being forced to perform until you died?"
Is it redundant to say that you can't force a five ton orca to do something that it doesn't want to do?
Russ Rector



Aug 13th, 2008 - 12:58 PM 		Re: Keiko

I DID SEE HIM IN MEXICO CITY A FEW MONTHS BEFORE HE MOVED. HE WAS NOT A GOOD RELEASE CANDIDATE HE HAD MANY HEALTH ISSUES BOTH MENTAL AND PHYSICAL. PNEUMONIA IS A PREDATORY DISEASE, HIS LUNGS WERE DAMAGE BY THE COLD AIR HE BREATHED...THAT'S WHY THERE ARE NO ORCAS IN NORWAY IN THE WINTER AND THAT WHY THEY DIDN'T WANT A NECROPSY!$$$!!!$$$ AND $60,000,000.00 IS STILL GONE!$$$$!!!!$$$$
ALWAYS REMEMBER ART IMITATES LIFE...LIFE NEVER IMITATES ART...NEVER!
Neveah



Aug 13th, 2008 - 1:48 PM 		Re: Keiko

I never said he was a good release candidate, in fact I think he was one of the worst. Compared to the Southern and Northern resident pods we know relatively little about the icelandic's social structure and the individuals in the pods. In that sense, Lolita and Corky are stronger in that we know where their pods are and who they belong too. (I still think its not a good idea; Corky's mother and everyone from her generation is dead and Lolita's sub pod has changed dramatically since she was captured and pollution and not enough fish... blahblah. You all have heard this from me before. :) )

But Lolita and Corky didn't have Free Willy made about them, they didn't have hundreds and thousands of kids clamoring for their release without going through the consequences of what could happen... like a whale who's been in human care and who has seen humans as his companions for most of life... maybe not adjusting totally to being with orcas.

No I don't think it was a good idea to free Keiko, it was a romantic idea sure... but not a good one. He should have stayed in the environment he grew up in.
ProudOrcaWarrior



Aug 13th, 2008 - 2:05 PM 		Re: Keiko

"he should have stayed in the environment he grew up in"
What, in a tiny tank in a sleazy amusement park that gave him lung and skin infections? Oh yeah, I bet you would LOVE to live in those conditions.
As I said, life is about quality, not quantity.
Anon



Aug 13th, 2008 - 2:36 PM 		Re: Keiko

Animals can get pneumonia out in the wild as well.

It affects the lungs. They live in the water and breathe air, so of course many of them have come down and died from it.

You can't just blame that strictly on captivity.
Neveah



Aug 13th, 2008 - 3:37 PM 		Re: Keiko

"What, in a tiny tank in a sleazy amusement park that gave him lung and skin infections? Oh yeah, I bet you would LOVE to live in those conditions."

I worded that wrong, I meant in the care of humans... not referring to his tank in Mexico. He should have stayed in Newport IMO or possibly Sea World California to be with other whales.

But that's just me.
amberly



Aug 14th, 2008 - 8:51 PM 		Re: Keiko

i agree completely
Manon



Aug 15th, 2008 - 9:17 AM 		Re: Keiko

KEIKO WAS KNOWN TO NOT GET ALONG WITH OTHER CAPTIVE ORCA'S. DRAGGING HIM TO SEA WORLD WOULD IN MY OPINION HAVE NOT BE A GOOD SOLUTION.

HE GOT ALONG FINE WITH WILD ORCA'S, WHERE AGGRESSION IS FAR LESS THAN IN CAPTIVITY.

I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT PRO-CAPTIVE PEOPLE DO HERE, AND I REALLY DON'T LIKE IT HOW YOU INSULT RUSS ON HIS VERY OWN FORUM. SHOW RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER, WOULD YOU?

KEIKO WAS OBVIOUSLY MORE HAPPY IN THE WILD, BECAUSE HE JUMP RANDOMLY A LOT MORE, SOMETHING HE DIDN'T DO IN MEXICO. HE STARTED VOICELISING AND STUFF.

KEIKO EDUCATED PEOPLE IN HIS OWN WAY, AND WHAT HE LEARNED PEOPLE WAS 10 TIMES BETTER THAN THE THINGS THAT SEA WORLD LEARNS PEOPLE WITH THEIR 'SHAMU'. I'VE BEEN TO A DOLFINARIUM WHEN I WAS LITTLE WITH MY PARENTS, AND I DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING, JUST DOLPHINS JUMPING OVER A LINE AND SEA LIONS MAKING SOME HALF-ASS SHOW WITH THEIR TRAINERS.

Keiko taught people that there is more then 'Shamu'.
Anon



Aug 15th, 2008 - 2:22 PM 		Re: Keiko

Manon, if you would read a little more closely, it is usually russ insulting us.

I have never insulted Mr. Rector.
While he and I disagree on many things, we've also had some good discussion.
Manon



Aug 16th, 2008 - 5:07 AM 		Re: Keiko

OKAY, I DO NOT DENY NOT READING EVERYTHING, ONLY READING THE FIRST, LIKE 10 POSTS. I SHOULD HAVE READ THE WHOLE TOPIC BEFORE ACCUSING YOU OF SOMETHING, MY APOLILIES.
Neveah



Aug 16th, 2008 - 11:05 AM 		Re: Keiko

"KEIKO WAS KNOWN TO NOT GET ALONG WITH OTHER CAPTIVE ORCA'S. DRAGGING HIM TO SEA WORLD WOULD IN MY OPINION HAVE NOT BE A GOOD SOLUTION."

If I remember right, it was more the other orcas not getting along with him... they would push him around and he would not defend himself.

HE GOT ALONG FINE WITH WILD ORCA'S, WHERE AGGRESSION IS FAR LESS THAN IN CAPTIVITY.

How can you say that wild orcas are less aggressive? Do you have a camera that follows them around?
They could have been just as aggressive or more to him then the orcas at MLC were, we can't know because they weren't observed.

KEIKO WAS OBVIOUSLY MORE HAPPY IN THE WILD, BECAUSE HE JUMP RANDOMLY A LOT MORE, SOMETHING HE DIDN'T DO IN MEXICO. HE STARTED VOICELISING AND STUFF.

He was jumping around in Newport and vocalizing there as well.

KEIKO EDUCATED PEOPLE IN HIS OWN WAY, AND WHAT HE LEARNED PEOPLE WAS 10 TIMES BETTER THAN THE THINGS THAT SEA WORLD LEARNS PEOPLE WITH THEIR 'SHAMU'. I'VE BEEN TO A DOLFINARIUM WHEN I WAS LITTLE WITH MY PARENTS, AND I DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING, JUST DOLPHINS JUMPING OVER A LINE AND SEA LIONS MAKING SOME HALF-ASS SHOW WITH THEIR TRAINERS.
Sea Worlds shows have some education, and surprisingly enough, that bit of information is more then the mass majority know. And just the sight of being so close to one is enough. Its one thing to see pictures, watch videos of killer whales... its completely different to see them in person.
Sea World is about conservation, and whats that quote? To want to save something, you have to love it, to love you must know it?


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